TeamCapri
Tech, Repairs, Upgrades => Capri N/A 89-94 => Topic started by: shep83 on March 20, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
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>:(Hi..
My Capri wouldn't start this morning to go to work. I was following a thread about checking the fuel system but it ended without resolution!?!?!?
Pump runs..
I have fuel out of filter..
Fires when primed...
What about Fuel pressure regulator??
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Come on guys, give me something.
I'm leaning toward replacing ECM...
I have the rail off enough to see the injectors and I'm about to test, soon as I get my daughter out there to turn the key :)
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Do you have tach signal (tach bounces?) Do you have spark? Just trying to rule out an ignitor issue
You say it runs when primed, but not otherwise? Sounds like bad gas, or a vacuum leak behind the VAF. Make sure all the intake connections are super secure, no loose hoses, and nothing is cracked
Don't try running the injectors like that, it's asking for an trouble If the engine fires, it will draw air in through the injector ports and redline instantly. Or cause a fire. Unsecured, those injectors will fire right out of the fuel rail.
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:) Hey thanks for answering, I got that idea from one of your old posts... :D
I got nothing out of the injectors though..
Definately not the gas it was running fine the night before but it's been hard starting since I had it.
That's kind of why I'm leaning toward the ECM.
Is there anything else that can make the injectors not work??
I found an old discussion about this same issue but the guy never said what worked.
I saw in another post something about a wire that can get bare and short but I don't see any single wires...
Do you have any idea what this refers to??
Thanks again..
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Just to clarify, it fires when I spray fuel into the throttle body, it hasn't actually run all day..
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The injectors work by the ECU supplying a ground to each injector (actually pair of injectors, but that doesn't matter). The injector must get voltage to work, and that is supplied constantly by the Main relay, behind the driver side headlight bucket. Voltage through that relay is sourced by the EGI fuse under the hood. What turns the Main relay on is the ignition switch through the Engine fuse, under the dash.
So, if the Main relay doesn't turn on, or voltage for another reason doesn't get to the injectors, no run.
1) Check the EGI fuse under the hood, 30 Amp. This supplies injector and air bag power.
2) Check any injector wire (black wire with white stripe) with ignition on, should read 12 volts.
If both these check out ok, then you have another problem...timing?...timing belt???...
In my case, I had a bad wire from the bottom of the fuse box to the Main relay. It is the black wire from under the fuse box, there is a connector there that had a corroded black wire connection I had to jumper to make my injectors work...Chris
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^^^ Good info to consider.
How well does the car run when it does run, is there smoke, smooth idle, performance under load, has the filter been checked, bought bad gas at some time, old gas, hows inside the tank look??????
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That's the wire I was looking for. thanks I'll check that.
The little car ran great until it didn't, the only real indicator I got was hard starting.
No smoke, I'm in South Florida so we have moisture issues down here but usually that causes some poor performance
Anybody have a good test for that relay?? like which prongs do I touch the red and black thingies on to see if there is continuity???
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Testing just the relay is tricky, best is to narrow down what is wrong with the relay installed.
Best way to test is measure that black wire with the white stripe that goes from the relay to the injectors. There is a technique to use that can be carefully used. Take a straight pin and pierce that wire, being careful not to let it touch any body part. Turn on the key, and you should read 12 volts or so from that pin to negative, the battery neg or chassis. Remove the pin afterwards and tape up that hole in the wire to keep moisture out.
If you got 12 volts then the problem is something else.
If no 12 volts, check the blue wire going into the relay. This should be 12 volts all the time.
If not, then voltage is not getting from the fuse to the relay/
If there is 12 volts, then the relay could be bad, probably is...Chris
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$@@$&!!$ CAR >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
OK,
Fuel pressure is a steady 30 PSI (jumpered with key on)
12 volts at the injector (needle test @ injector)
Fires when I spray gas into intake..
No gas is coming out of injectors!!!!
I've read this similar problem in the archives several times but there is never a final solution..
Anybody got anymore ideas?????
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Sounds like the ECU then. There's writeups around here on how best to pull it, you can test operation without completely installing the replacement, just plug it in and let it dangle... there is a slight possibility that timing is way off for some reason, if the plugs fire after an exhaust stroke, there's nothing there to ignite, but flooding the piston with starter fluid gives it something to burn...
Does anyone out there know if a broken timing belt could show his symptoms? (The timing belt IS still there, right?)...Chris
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Can you confirm that your tach gauge bounces when you try to start the car?
Have you tested for spark @ the plugs? Lack of these two could be a bad ground, a burned ignitor, broken timing belt
Very easy to test these
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Unfortunately it's a automatic, no tach guage..
I haven't pulled a plug and checked the actual spark, I wrote that off when I got fire by priming the air intake.
I will check spark tonight, but I am 100% certain that my injectors are not firing and I'm 99% sure they are getting power.
The power though was constant, so what controls the firing?
Does this signal come from the PCM or is there another thing that tells the injectors when to squirt??
Also are the ECM, PCM, ECU all the same things or am I totally misunderstanding something..
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ECM/PCM/ECU are all the same thing. There is a position sensor inside the distributor that tells the spark when to fire, and the ECU uses this signal to fire the injectors.
If you are getting 30 PSI at the rail, that is too low. If I remember right it should be 45psi give or take ~5psi with normal vacuum on the FPR, and 50+psi when there's no vacuum applied
No tachometer? All the Capri gauge clusters are the same (sans boost gauge for the turbo, 94 had a grey backer), it should have one. Even the XR2's (never automatic) still got the MANUAL SHIFT and POWER MODE light that the autos have, they're just not wired into anything
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Thanks for clarifying the ecm,pcm,ecu thing.
I thought they were all the same thing but you never know..
I will check the gauges when I get home, I guess I just never paid any attention to the tach...
Do you think it could be the fuel pump have been slowly losing power and it now at a point where the pressure is to low to fire the injectors???
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It can be a weak battery, corroded wire, crappy connect at the pump under the seat. The pump itself could be worn out.
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YES, the tach bounces slightly as the motor turns over.
I can't believe I didn't really notice that I had a tach..
ROCKETMAN, you sound like you're leaning toward the fuel pump..
It's been raining here all day, I did replace the fuel filter just to cover all bases with no change...
I will replace the fuel pump and hope that gets it, If that doesn't do it I will have to order the PCM..
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It's so hard to diagnose an issue like this without the car in front of me.
Good that you have tach signal!
Have you tried probing the injectors with your ear up against the (handle!) end of a screwdriver? You'll hear/feel it firing
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OK I did the screw driver test and I didn't here any clicking....
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Okay. That narrows things down a bit. If the injectors are getting constant +12 battery power then they're getting grounded by the ECU...could be the ECU. I'd triple check ALL the fuses (under hood & under dash) before springing for another ECU
Could be a bad connection between the injectors and the ECU. Plug that got wet or kicked, etc...
I know you've checked & confirmed fuel but theres the safety rollover switch in the trunk
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doesn't rollover switch deactivate fuel pump??
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>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Got my new PCM today...
STILL DOESN"T START!!!
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What are your thoughts on Throttle Position Sensor???
Anybody out there have one?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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TPS won't cause a no-start condition.
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Here is the explanation from the Ask a Pro guys...
"If you are sure you have good fuel pressure and spark then you either have a defective PCM or your TP sensor is bad . If the TP sensor is stuck in the wide open throttle position it will shut the injector pulse off. Check power to the injectors on the BK/W wire when cranking. It should be battery voltage. If okay, check for 5v on the Vref circuit to the TPS, on the W/BK wire and check to make sure that the TPS voltage on the OG wire is not shorted high. The signal voltage should read roughly 0.5v Key On Engine Off and on a closed throttle. Any thing different would me its stuck wide open. "
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Try disconnecting the TPS. That will throw the ECU into limp mode. If it still does not start, it's not the TPS.
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I will try it when I get home.
I'm running out of ideas other than have it towed to a garage but I don't know if it's worth it.
I have 12v power at the injector so it isn't the relay...
I replaced the PCM, no change (possible new PCM is no good, but unlikely)
The only thing left is the fuel pump and it runs and I have 30 PSI, all the mechanics I know say it should run on 30 PSI.
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FSM specs 37-41 PSI when running at idle. That number should be closer to 55psi without any vacuum on the FPR (static test without the engine cranking, pump test plug jumpered)
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So you would replace the fuelpump..
The only reason I haven't is because that's the one part I can't take back..
I can't even lie and say I didn't put it on the car.
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So you would replace the fuelpump..
If it were me I'd be testing everything thoroughly with a multi-meter and checking for absolute certain that the injectors are or are not firing. Can you rig up a small LED with a resistor to use as a "Noid light"? Because you said this earlier:
OK I did the screw driver test and I didn't here any clicking....
While the engine was cranking, correct?
Two very different issues (fuel pump vs ECM) and replacing parts is expensive and testing for the most part only takes time. Your fuel pressure test is low but not a smoking gun here
And to be sure - the intake piping is all intact and tight? Even after you spray startfluid into the throttlebody, you put the pipe back securely? The engine will NOT continue to run without drawing are through the VAF unit bolted to the filter box. The fuel pump switch is inside the VAF and only turns on when there is airflow. I mention this because I've seen a LOT of people run into this, and it's a simple thing to fix. Also occurs when the piping slips off, cracks, etc.
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I am certain the injectors are not firing.
What about the switch in the VAF??
Does it turn the power on or does it tell the ECM to fire the injectors??
I will do the trouble light test as well..
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There's two parts inside the VAF - one tells the ECU how much air is coming in. The other turns the pump on/off.
Neither will keep the ECM from firing the injectors.
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Back to the problem at hand.
I have just noticed that my check engine light doesn't come on when I turn the key on.
Does yours???????????
I have: OD, AIRBAG, BATTERY, FUEL
But no ENGINE???
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Yes, the CEL should illuminate when the key is first turned on.
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This CEL not being on makes me think that perhaps the new PCM isn't any good either..
I have 12V into the PCM..
I replaced the fuel pump just to rule out and now I have NO fuel pressure, I think I got a bad pump!
Is thiere any tricky Capri quirks to installing a fuel pump??
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I'm getting dizzy trying to keep up with this thread... did you ever try starting with the tps disconnected? You never said...
Nothing tricky about fuel pump replacement, but I've always replaced the entire pump/sender assembly.
I could believe a new (Chinese) pump is bad... you did reconnect that chassis ground wire at the tank????
I don't want to believe 2 bad pcms, assuming your replacement is a used one. Check that light bulb out...Chris
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I'm getting dizzy too, and it's my thread..
The latest in the ongoing saga of my @#%$$#@ 94 Capri...
OH yea, I replaced TPS (no change)
After spending another day testing and reading,
I jumped the self diagnostic to ground to check the PCM and discovered that I don't have a CEL....
So I checked the fuse box, OK. checked power to PCM 12V at both pins,
cussed and scratched my head.
Decided to change the fuel pump because that's the only thing that I could actually find that wasn't working 100%.. (I had 30PSI at filter)
After I changed the fuel pump I GOT 0PSI
Figured I screwed something up so took it out took it apart and put it back in..(about 6 times)
Took pump back and told them it was no good and got another one and still 0PSI
Got extremely frustrated and sick of listening to the damn fan run (key was on)
so I banged the fan relay and the fan shut-off and I heard it!!!!!!!!!!
I heard a SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Coming from the engine, I believe coming from the Fuel Pressure Reg.
My newest theory is that the old pump was barely hanging on with the pressure leak
but it wasn't enough to fire the injectors, when I replaced pump the pressure increase finished off the FPR and now it can't hold anything....
Getting new FPR tonight to test theory.....(Oh and hopefully the CEL is just a bad bulb)
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If you use a pair of vice grips on the rubber portion of the return line, you can clamp that & check to see if you have pressure. Even if the FPR was wide open, there is still a restriction because of its design & should show at least a few PSI.
How are you testing the pump? Cranking the engine? Pump test jumper on the firewall? Applying power directly under the seat?
The CEL is likely a burnt out bulb in the cluster. You can jumper a pin directly to the ECU and rig up your own light temporarily. Here's the pinout:
(http://werbatfik.com/uplimg/b6tecupinout.gif)
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I've jumpered the firewall plug.
When I removed the old pump and pulled the motor out of the carriage the O ring fell out so I never actually saw the placement of the O ring and there is a plastic "hat" shaped cap.
You don't know the correct placement of these do you?
Those are the only things that I could have screwed up on the fuel pump. the rest is very straight forward...
I'm not sure what you are suggesting with the chart??
I'm going to owe you a 12 pack when this is over :)
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Re: the Chart: On the ECU, if you tap into the plug on terminal 1A and run it to a 12V light bulb, and ground the other half - you should get a functioning temporary CEL to run tests with, without having to pull the gauge cluster apart. You could even use your multimeter
Was it a big fat O-ring with a ~1/4" ID? if so thats what seals the pump output into the housing.
That goes inside the "bell" that the pump outlet slides into, and provides the seal. Without that you won't get any pressure.
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Yea, I put the O ring thingy in there, but there is also the little hat shaped thingy and I wasn't sure about which came first, since I didn't have any fuel pressure I was doubting myself.
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I think the hat-thing helps keep the O-Ring up in there.
Did you re-use the old o-ring? it's a good idea to replace it, most pumps don't come with new ones. I cannot remember where I got mine
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It came with a bunch of extras for different cars, new ring was included.
Do you think that FPR will fix it???
Now I just have to take back the PCM I bought and convince them I never installed it ;)
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Well, still no go!
Installed new Fuel Pressure Reg. (Thanks Rocketman)
Didn't do shit!!!
I guess I have to figure out how to check the timing (never done it before)
I'm absolutely stumped at this point...
It still sounds like the fuel is running right thru it..
Is it possible that there isn't enough gas to prime the new fuel filter??
It has about 1/8 tank....
I'm open to suggestions.. anyone want to buy a 94??
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Like rocket says, it's hard to fix things like this, I need longer arms to reach SW Florida...
Just to clarify, when you spray fluid into the intake, does the car run OK for a few seconds, or does it just act like it fires occasionally? Using starter fluid is best here, making sure you get a decent seal from the VAF to the throttle body (you don't need to tighten everything up after spraying)
I think running OK on starter fluid for a few seconds means a fuel issue of some sort, either no (or insufficient) fuel to the injectors, or no injector turn on. Firing occasionally on starter fluid, trying to start, and not running normally, to me, points to a NOT fuel issue, like timing, bad compression, weak spark, lots of things...Chris
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I feel like such a rookie, chiming in with the gurus.
This happened to me one time.
Towed to the mechanic.
He told me he simply did full tuneup: plugs, wires, rotor.
Biggest prob was prob the rotor button fouled out.
I was scared for a moment
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Chiming in when an 'expert' hasn't solved anything is ALWAYS appropriate. You make a good point that a good starting point is to make sure a complete tuneup is done. My last tuneup on my 93 daily driver was surprising, I pulled the dist cap and the rotor fell out in pieces, and it was running OK before. The metal on top of the rotor was just sitting there, held on by the almost gone button in the cap...
Experience is the best teacher, don't hesitate to share your trials and tribulations with the Capri, as well as fun times!!!...Chris
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The power of a forum like this is not the "Experts"
The power is the people...
Please don't hesitate to share your experience...
I'm stuck and I need to hear some alternate ideas...
I agree with the tuneup idea and I've been thinking along the same lines..
Really the only course I have is to start from scratch, I really need to fix this GD fuel pressure issue first tho, WHY DON'T I HAVE ANY FUEL PRESSURE!!
sorry to shout ;)
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Update,
It's been over a month and I still don't have this damn car running...
Anybody inthe Southwest Fl. area want to buy a Capri cheap??????
It has a lot of new parts on it!@#$#@%$!!!
I still can't stop the fuel from running thru, no fuel pressure
I just replaced the Distibuter $300 and still nothing...
There is a small "solenoid" that the vacuum line on the Fuel pressure regulator goes to..
Anybody know what this is called, I can't find one....
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It's the hot-start solenoid. It cuts vacuum to the FPR during hot starts to raise the fuel pressure, which helps idle stability on hot starts and helps flush the hot fuel out of the rail. It would not have anything to do with your issue, but you can bypass it if you want.
Still no fuel pressure? Have you taken the pump back out to test the assembly for leakage?
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Leakage from the fuel pump?.. If I put the old pump back in I get pressure around 30 psi but no fire.
With new pump I get constant flow thru lines, I can hear it but it's like the FPR is wide open and just allows fuel to flow freely.
The FPR seems to hold pressure, I can't blow thru it and a balloon stayed inflated all night.
Seems that when under load (more than 30 psi) the FPR opens so does that indicate a back FPR or a different vacuum problem????
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I dont see that you stated how the car runs/ran when you sprayed fuel at the throttle body. Will you please tell me how it runs when you are doing that?
Is it gasoline or starter fluid?
What do you use as a sprayer?
Do you open the throttle plate and spray it in the plenum????
Have you had it run using this method since you changed the distributor?
Have you had it run using this method sice you began swapping Feul parts?
By this point I suggest installing a pressure gauge after the Filter and before the Injector Rail and watching it as you mess with something else.
Have you replaced the Filter?
How many miles are on the engine?
How long have you driven this car with no problems?
Have you had recent work done of any kind, fluids, jumpstart, airfilter, anything?
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I would look at the intake hoses for a air leak and take a rest on the pressure worries. The "acordian" flex neck near the Air Flow Meter fails in clever ways. Removing it and using your fingers to CAREFULLY search EVERY fold and curve.
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ALL of these questions are valid when trying to get help from thousands of miles away.
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It will start and run for a for seconds on starting fluid sprayed directly into the throttle body. (Throttle plate open)
It will also start and run on gasoline..
Yes I had it running after changing the distributor.
I have gauge installed, I have 0 psi
Had the car about 4 month's no problems...
No recent work prior to this other than some brake work and new plugs..
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You need to investigate lack of fuel. It's not dumping out under the car is it?
Silly question, but when you replaced the pump, did you hook up the return/pressure lines backwards? This would cause the lack of pressure symptoms
Did you ever check that o-ring that seals the pump into the "bell" on the underside of the sending unit?
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No leaking, I put the old pump back on and it seems to stop the constant flow problem but still no start...
I think it's a vacuum problem that somehow there isn't enough vacuum there restrict the flow at the higher pressures the new fuel pump creates...
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The restriction in the FPR is generated by a spring pushing on a needle valve. There's a diaphragm in there that works with the spring.
When there is NO Vacuum, you will get MAX fuel pressure.
When there is full vacuum, you will get base idle pressure.
Adding vacuum to the FPR reduces fuel pressure
This is done, so there is a constant pressure differential between the intake manifold & the fuel injectors, to keep the flow rate consistent. The fuel pressure will vary yes, but it stays a constant pressure relative to the pressure in the intake manifold.
I sent you that extra FPR, if there's no change in pressure when you swap that in, then it's not an FPR problem