TeamCapri
Tech, Repairs, Upgrades => Capri XR-2 89-94 => Topic started by: Nascarfan08 on May 15, 2008, 09:31:00 AM
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Sorry I've become kind of a lurker lately, I've been busy with my senior year and whatnot.
Unfortunately I've had a major problem with the Capri. I'll give you the long version to hopefully give as much as evidence as possible. I'll start at the very beginning, I guess.
A few weeks ago, when I'd start the car up in the morning and would first leave my driveway, as the turbo would spin up it would make kind of a "weeeee" noise for just a second. I attributed it to the cold and figured it was just one of those turbo noises.
Then, as I was coming home on the freeway, that noise suddenly happened again, except that it wasn't for a second... it was constant. "Weeeee...weeee...weeeeweeeweeee...weeee", etc. I suddenly lost a lot of power and the car slowed down to about 55, even with my foot close to the floor. I decided since it was driving okay and I didn't see anything bad coming out the back, I'd keep babying it until I got closer to home, because frankly, I didn't want to be a white boy with a broken down car near Flint (it's the most dangerous city in the nation or something). I stopped at a gas station, didn't see anything, and the car was idiling okay there, so I got back on the freeway. I decided that as soon as I got close enough to take backroads I would, to get out of the way and take my good ol' time, but try to get it home. As I exited the freeway, the car was really sputtering, and I looked back and saw a huge cloud of smoke, so I shut it down immediately.
After getting it home, we started to do preliminary analysis. The engine itself is fine- it pulls great vaccum, and still ran up the point that I shut it down. It burned up all of it's oil, down from full to below L. The oil was COVERING the intake from the turbo up through the engine, where it was burning and causing the smoke. Everything seems to point to the turbo, but I want to see what you guys think. Initially I got suggestions that I seized the bearings in the turbo, but as I've been slowly pulling everything apart, I've gotten to the intake side of the impeller thing and it spins with little resistance and seems undamaged. I have yet to actually remove the turbo, because if it's something else I'd like to save myself the hassle of pulling it out.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Scott
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ouch that sucks to hear that happen i dont really know what the problem is but what what part of muchugan are you from ? if it is the turbo i have a spare one that i could prolly sell to your for super cheap like less than 50 bucks or more it works well with my car its got some bent fins but its works real good but im upping the boost and that wouldnt do good but it runs great if it is the turbo i can prolly hook you up with it
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Grab the nut on the intake side and move it back and forth while spinning it, if it hits anywhere the turbo is shot. If it doesn't the turbo is still probably shot.
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It really sounds like your turbo is shot. The bearings were probably worn out and he oil seals failed.
Dont replace it with a damaged turbo unless you are really desperate. Its a pretty big job but not huge, you should be able to pull it off on a saturday.
In the meantime do not run the car as it will continue to consume all of its oil. I did the same thing and I burned a quart in less than 25 miles.
Also note your intercooler will be filled with oil. Clean it out best you can, and keep in mind the car will probably smoke for a while untill all the oil is drawn in and burned off.
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Hey Nascar! I'm jumping on the bandwagon, as I've had indentical symptoms twice myself. Source out a good used unit or a quality rebuilt. Dallas[Majestic] Turbo is a popular rebuilder in the forums. Good Luck Gus.
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My next question is, what caused this? Simply its time, or did something else cause the wear and eventual fail on the turbo (I still haven't gotten it off yet, so no exact diagnosis, but I'm throwing out general questions). Basically, I don't want to buy another turbo to have it slowly get eaten up again. I've only got 74,000 miles and would love to at least double that. I love this car.
Thanks,
Scott
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Hey Nascar! 74,000 miles is soon for a normal driven car. Several factors,oil needs changed regularly with out fail, they're more sensitive to dirty oil. Also, some people will turn a car off imediately after highly spooling the turbo up. That turbo can spin up to a minute after spooling and if there is a lack of oil pressure then damage is done. then there is the changing of the air filter. Oil is the most important. Gus.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turbos-turbocharger-Mazda-323-Capri-XR2-1-6L_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ019QQitemZ290230447060QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turbos-turbocharger-Mazda-323-Capri-XR2-1-6L_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ019QQitemZ290230447060QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)
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Hey Rocketman! You spreading the word on a turbo I'm bidding on? Gus.
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Holy Crap! The bid went from 102.50 to 350.00 just today alone! Gus
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If you want one that isn't new but only has 50k, I'll let one go for alot less than $350. I also have one with 125k that you can have for really cheap and get rebuilt for less than that one.
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There are several things that can lead to turbo failure:
-Crappy oil. If you dont have clean oil, you can get crap in the turbo bearings and it will wear. Also, running low on oil can kill a turbo (and an engine) very quickly
-Boosting while the engine is still cold. You can take off with a cold engine but avoid putting the pedal down. You'll notice the turbo sounds much different spooling when its cold.
-Overboosting. Overspooling the turbo accelerates the wear on the turbo.
-Cheap/worn out/blocked bypass/blowoff valve. If your bpv is clogged or just not functioning properly. the turbo will suffer from compressor surge. Our turbos are tiny, and are easily stalled. A poorly adjusted aftermarket valve, or a cheap aftermarket valve that just doesnt work correctly can also cause turbo damage.
-FOD- foreign object damage. If your air filter isnt up to par or if its damaged, large debris can be sucked into the turbo and cause major damage to the fins.
-Coked oil- running dyno oil and parking the car hot. The oil cokes up in the bearings and craps em up. This is not too much of a problem since we have water cooled turbos; but you should always let the car cool down a bit (idle) after very hard driving, before parking. Since we have such a small turbo it wont really keep spinning for long but larger turbos this can be an issue.
-Blocked oil drain- if the oil drain becomes blocked or kinked, high pressure oil builds up inside the turbo and eventually makes its way out of the oil seals into the compressor and/or the turbine.
It could also just be a fluke - maybe improperly balanced from the factory. These are common issues you situation may differ im just offering up some possible causes of turbodeath
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Thanks guys! No word yet but I'm getting closer to having it off.
I can eliminate every one but the dirty oil just because I try to use common sense and care while driving the car. How often do you change the oil in your cars? I had seen everything from 3,000 to 6,000. I hit 3,000 in January, and since I was planning on doing it myself, I had been putting it off (so cold!)... I was somewhere just north of 5,000 when it blew.
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Well, it's off, and it's official. The bearings are bad. I took off the exhaust and could see the impeller for the exhaust side (I'm talking the exhaust pipe, not the manifold off the engine). I reached up and was able to push it back inside. I won't know until I get the exhaust manifold off what all exactly is bad inside.
Are there any bearing rebuild kits available, and would this even be a feasible option, or would it be better to just find a turbo in good condition?
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If the turbo is that bad, its not rebuildable. The shaft has bearing seats that if they become too worn, it cannot be re-used and must be replaced.
Also, if the turbine or the compressor wheels have impacted the housings they may be damaged.
You can try to send it out for rebuild but they'll likely have to replace the CHRA, which is usually very expensive. You'd be best off finding a good used turbo.
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Hey Nascar! Save that turbo for only the housing. Look for a good used one in the pick-n-pull yards. Approx $30 Or wrecking yards $200. They are on our Capri, Mazda 323GT, and GTX. Thats your best route unless you're getting into performance. Then you can send your turbo off to someone like Dallas/Majestic Turbo and have them build a turbo. About $500-$600. Good Luck! Gus
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From what I've been able to tell, I know the answer to this, but I had to ask anyway, because my mom really wants to know before we ship the turbo off to be rebuilt. Is there any kind of rebuild kit available? And, if there is, is this something a home mechanic would be able to do?
Thanks,
Scott
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Hey Nascar! There are some parts available but it is high not recommended to mess with it. The vanes are very fragile and balancing the turbo vanes takes a highly specialized machine. Though expensive, there is a reason. Good luck Gus
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Rocketman, you suggested earlier that I clean out the charge air cooler, since it's probably coated in oil. According to the service manual, you have to remove the bumper assembly, which unfortunately is in a section of the manual not online. So... is there a way to remove it without removing the bumper? if not, what do I have to do to remove the bumper/how difficult is it?
Thanks,
Scott
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Removing the bumper is really the only way to take the intercooler off.
Start off with the two bolts inside the wheel well on each side, they're 8mm IIRC, watch them because they secure into plastic clips on the back of the bumper cover. They often rust and seize and end up tearing out of the plastic. Count on having to use some assorted hardware to fix this when you are done.
Check under the front lip. Most of the bolts holding it to the frame will probably be torn off, but if there are any, remove them.
Remove your foglights if you'd like a little more room, they are one plug and two 13mm nuts under the bumper support.
On those same bumper supports you will have 3 nuts to remove on each side. Two are on the upper front at the top, on each side of the support. One is on the rear on the otherside of the frame, on the outward facing side of the car. Hit all these nuts with WD40 first, it'll make your life a lot easier.
The one nut you will have big problems with. The passenger side inside nut on the front is blocked by the intercooler piping. You'll need to fiddle with the piping to try to get in there, and its going to be very tight. You'll see exactly what I mean when you get there. Unclamping all the intercooler hoses can help so they can be moved around somewhat freely.
Note once the bumper is off there may be some shims on the support bolts, try not to lose as you remove the bumper from the car. A slight outward tap once everything is free is enough to send the bumper to the ground, so be careful.
The intercooler itself is held on by two 10mm nuts bolted to rubber standoffs. WD40 these good, because if they are seized you can tear the rubber standoffs in half. The other side of the intercooler has two bosses that fit into the center header panel support, so once the two 10mm nuts are removed the intercooler will just slide out.
You might want to have an extra hand around while re-installing the bumper as it can be pretty frustrating to get back into place.
I think thats about it. Be careful of your front lenses with the bumper cover off, its very easy to lean onto them and crack them (done that too many times now)
Hope this helps.
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Thank you so much! I should be all set because I just picked up a new bottle of WD40 today at Murray's. I honestly love the stuff. Haha.
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Well, I pulled the air cooler, and WOW! I got a ton of oil out of there! I'm really glad I did that. And, while I had the bumper off I was able to mount my new fog lights.
Yesterday a big package came in the mail- a turbo from Mid County Mustang Capri! I've got it halfway in already! I finally feel like I'm making progress. Hopefully I'll have the car on the road in a few days.
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i'm afraid to ask how much that turbo cost
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It's cost 599.99 for a rebuilt unit from there. I just looked in the catalog I got from them.
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I got it for less than list.
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Hey Nascar! I also shuddered. Knowing their price and what the turbo builders charge. the known turbo builders get 400-450 for a fresh and complete build. Gus.
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Okay guys, I got it in and it runs great! Now I'm on to a problem that existed before it went that still is there now. I had the check engine light on for a while before, and it's still on. I just shorted out the thing to get the code (I finally found out how), and it came back blinking once, which I assumed to be code 01. According to the list, that's either the IDM or the PIP Circuit. So... help? What are these?
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hey man how did u read your code i have been trying to find that out for awhile now also i have a check engine light on and can not find out how to put the pin in to see the blinking lights on the dash???????
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Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) signal fault
) Ignition PIP signal was erratic or missing -
IGNITION SIGNAL PROCESSING
The EDIS system uses a chip to process the 36 or 40 tooth crankshaft position signal from the CKP, this generates a low data-rate Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) signal for the PCM and provides control of the 4 or 6 terminal coil pack which fires a pair of spark plugs. One of the sparkplugs is on the compression stroke and the other the exhaust stroke.
CCM checks the ignition system by monitoring three ignition signals:
The PIP signal generated by the CKP - the timing reference signal. PIP is a 50% duty cycle, square-wave signal with a rising edge at 10º BTDC.
Camshaft IDentification (CID) signal derived from the CaMshaft Position sensor (CMP). This identifies #1 cylinder.
Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) a signal that indicates that the primary side of the ignition coil has fired. This signal is received as a digital pulse width signal from the EDIS chip. The EDIS chip determines if the current flow to the ignition coil reaches the required current (typically 3 to 4 Amps for DIS) within a specified time period, normally >200 microseconds.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm)
this page tell more sounds like something with the dis. or the coil to me lol i dont understand this.. but thats what it is lol
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hey nascar what part of michigan you from ?
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Bryan,
That is for a Ford engine with EDIS ignition. That may be the fault code but wrong engine. We do not have a crank sensor nor do we have coilpacks.
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I'm from the Howell area, Josh. What about you?
So... from what I've read... it might be timing related? Because I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the timing on the car might be a hair off.
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im in the metro detroit area ... dearborn to be exact
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i know i was just giving the information on what the letters said and i put that on there i would think that the letters are the same no matter what car there on?? i still what to know how he got the codes my engine light still comes on
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Sorry, I realized that I forgot to tell you how to do it, haha.
Up on the firewall in the engine where there are a few different connectors (one to short out the fuel pump, etc). The single pin green one is the one to get codes. Take a piece of wire and ground it out to a ground point. Click your key to "run" and the light will stay on for a second, go out, then begin to blink the codes until you shut it off. Keep trying if it won't go at first- I kept playing with my wire to get a good ground until I finally got codes.
Hope I helped!
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on thanks man it worked lol and i have code it comes on then goes off then come on and blinks twice then it comes on and then goes off and blinks twice is the 12 or 2 ? and what is that
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Sounds to me like "12". And... I'm not sure. On the list there are two "12"s, and I have no idea how to distinguish between the two, or if one isn't for our car, or what.
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were did you find the list ?? can u tell me what the two 12s are so that i have some clue on what it is ?
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The list is here on Team Capri. Go to "Manuals and How Tos", click on "Car Trouble Codes", and there you go.
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http://teamcapri.com/howtos/cartroublecodes.html (http://teamcapri.com/howtos/cartroublecodes.html)