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[Jim Simms]

In an attempt to keep from receiving an involuntary enema from a mechanic, who is inspecting my 91 xr2 (build date 5/91) to pass smog, I will pass along the story to become more educated.

1. First smog test: timing was said to be 22 degrees btdc, passed emissions

2. My mechanic said was 10 btdc

3. second smog: (same company, diff location, diff tech) timing 8 atdc

4. to diff mech, does smog inspection: set timing at 12 btdc, old dude try to sell me harmonic balancer

5. back to first smog tester: timing read 15 btdc (passed, 3 degree viarance), failed the CO by a hair.

6. back to smog inspection mechanic- pulled #1 plug, found tdc, said harmonic balancer moves, so cannot read timing. said there is some "rubber" in the balancer which moves. Need replace harmonic balancer. 

Could this be true?  Even if the car runs good, idles good, cranks good, and seems to be correct timing, does the balancer need to be replaced? 
He also mentioned the Vibration Damper.

this will be part of the Capri library which you smart guys built.

Am going to look up in my shop manual to see what it looks like, but need the feedback from guys who are not interested in hosing me.

[Rocketman]

Yes, there is rubber in the harmonic balancer. It's also called a Crank Damper, vibration damper, and most folks will simply call it a "Crank Pulley" The outer pulley is isolated by rubber, and this weight helps to remove harmful vibrations from the crankshaft inherent with internal combustion engine operation.

Over time the rubber can wear out, and cause the pulley to spin. The timing mark is on the pulley, so the mark will appear to move and won't give consistent readings.

The variance in readings can also be caused by mechanics failing to properly time the engine by removing & plugging the vacuum line from the distributor. The STATIC timing should be 12° ±2° BTDC, with vacuum on the advance it will be much further BTDC

So, you do need to figure out if the rubber is shot. Russ might be your best bet for a replacement, OE are not exactly easy to get and there are no aftermarket options. There are better options if you have a large nose engine (you should, based of the build date of 5/91) you could upgrade the balancer and pullies to use two four-rib belts

[Jim Simms]

Thanks Matt.
It is surely helpful for those of us who need a bit of explanation.  So, the harmonic balancer and the pulley is the one piece, coming off the crank shaft.
The last mechanic / smog guy, who had two diff parts: the crankshaft pulley (Part number F1JY 6A312A, and also a "vibration damper", F1JY 6312A. 
Since the car was made 5/91, does that mean it had the long nose shaft?

I have a call in to Russ for tomorrow.
I am getting a bit of vibration as I drive, not idling.  This might be the problem with that also.

Thanks.

Jim

[grantduffield]

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af15/grantduffield/Group21-Engines-Gasoline18_zps41759bf5.jpg

[Rocketman]

When the engine runs, the explosions in the cylinders make the crankshaft ring like a bell. This can get very loud at times when engine speed matches up with the resonant frequency of the crank. Imaging ringing a bell - then placing your hand on it. It dampens the sound - this is exactly what the harmonic balancer does.

So when they say vibration - its not a vibration you would be able to feel in your car - that's another issue like an unbalanced wheel or worn suspension component.

OEM is a two-piece design - the balancer itself is the inner V-belt pulley. The outer portion is just a pulley, the 4-rib that drives the ac/ps pump. Some of the replacements available are all one piece.

I would recommend getting a picture of the balancer to confirm long/short nose - the long nose has 4 bolts in a perfect square, with a pin in between 2 of the bolts. The short nose has 4 bolts in a rectangular pattern, no pin, with a notch/keyway right off the center bore.

[Jim Simms]

Thanks to Grant for  the pic, and to Matt.
I had just printed out the pic just before seeing the one sent. glad everyone one has acess to Tech Capri. i also have the hard cover shop manual, thanks to Robt Danzman.
so, if i can get away with simply buying the damper, instead of buying the crank pulley itself, I guess i will be ok.
Thankfully, Russ has access to these, and I have been in touch.
The long nose/short nose issue is solved: car was made 5/91.
I assume that is long nose.
the part number is very different from those made before 10/90.

Off to see the wizard !!!

[Jim Simms]

Well, looks like the smog inspector guy who said he could get a new harmonic balancer could not deliver. Have another option.
Here is the big question:
When I get a new harmonic balancer, do I need to buy a new crank pulley too?
There shouldn't be anything wrong with the pulley.
What do you smart gurus think ?

[Rocketman]

Russ is about the only guy who can get them new.

Some of the replacements are two-piece, so you can re-use the pulley. Some of them are a single piece, so it gets replaced with one unit. The outside pulley itself is not a wear item, so go ahead and re-use it if you get only the damper.

[Jim Simms]

Glad Russ has access to them.
Scared to get a used one. Never know how old it is. Might be as old as mine, 170,000 miles.
Based upon the wisdom from this site, and the sound and feel of the car, seems the new balancer will make a difference.

Does the pulley have two slots- one belt for the PS and AC, the other for the alternator?

What type of "upgrade" for a pulley were you referring to in earlier post? What would that upgrade do?

[Rocketman]

Honestly you probably wont even feel/tell the difference in the balancers, it's not really something you feel. It's there to keep the engine bearings in good shape

But at least you'll have the assurance that it won't tear and fly apart on you while you're driving down the road. And you'll be able to properly time it.


The pulley upgrade I developed gets rid of the stock inner v-belt (which is pretty problematic, IMO) and replaces it with a 4-rib belt like the ac/ps belt

[Jim Simms]

I ordered a harmonic balancer from Russ, and I was assured it is a new one. Should be here any day.

What you have is very interesting. I see the timing mark on the block, and I guess the inner pulley has a mark as well.

Question on your pulley: Does the inner pulley go to the alternator, and the outside pulley go to the PS and AC ?

What is the advantage of 4 ribs versus the way it is?
I never looked at the balancer to see if it was a pulley as well.

Hope this fixes my problem. This thing might be sliping more than I knew.  I am having problem with speeds over 55 mph (vibrations) and also losing power going up hills.

Could the loss of power be a timing issue?

[Rocketman]

The vibration is going to be a worn suspension component, unbalanced wheel, bad CV shaft, etc.

The loss of power could be timing but could also be any number of things like needing a tune up or a vacuum leak, and on and on.

On the above picture, yes the belt routing is exactly the same a stock. 4 rib micro-vee belt is far superior to the conventional vee-belt. it provides more grip over a wider area and isn't going to be prone to burning up belts. On the later model engines Mazda went to all micro-vee belts.

[azgtx]

You can also time these engines by setting your light to 12*btdc and shoot it at the crank pulley from the side looking in at the bolt. The little pin matches up to the crank gear mark which is tdc. If your light is set at the 12* with the light on the pin it should be straight up. But you have solved the issue of the wandering damper by getting a new one.

[Jim Simms]

Thank you so much.
I will print this out and show to the people who could not find timing mark.
The problem is not solved: balancer was ordered a week ago.
Supplier has not received from their source.
Have no idea where source is located.
You guys have been very helpful, helps understand who is the BS artist

[Jim Simms]

I have not looked under the hood, but does the inside pulley run the wp and alt, while the crank pulley runs the AC and ps ?