TeamCapri
Tech, Repairs, Upgrades => Capri N/A 89-94 => Topic started by: ChazMelton on June 06, 2015, 03:04:20 PM
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Hi,
I am having a problem with a non-starter. I was running fine two years ago, then one day is just hesitated and stopped while my step dad was driving it. I just replaced the coil today, and I am seeing now that I am not getting any spark from it to the distributor. I have read miles of posts in multiple forums, and many people point to the ignition control module, but I can't see how something on the distributor can effect the coil getting spark. Please help me! Ask for any more info needed. I am begging you guys for help, I need this car running.
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When you turn the key on the power relay closes and energizes the primary windings on the coil. It's hot but it doesn't induce a spark until the ignition module grounds out the negative side of the coil.
There are conditions where timing has to advance or retard. Based on other sensors feeding the computer and communicating with the ignition module it can modify the fire when needed. So it's the ignition modules job to tell the coil when to fire. One is the muscle and the other is the brains, lol
Go here and download section 14 under the 1991 Capri manual. It's the most thorough manual. Section 14 covers troubleshooting the ignition system.
http://techcapri.home.comcast.net/~techcapri/
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Thank you for the explanation. I am ordering one today. I have already spent so much money trying to pinpoint the problem, I really hope this is it.
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We can say the coil is good since it's new. You can do resistance checks on it but we'll skip that.
First with the key on with a meter, ground wire on the chassis or battery negative... touch the hot meter lead to the coil positive +. It should read about 12v.
Then take the hot meter lead and touch the coil negative post while someone is cranking the engine. It should read around 6v. If it doesn't then I would suspect the pick up coil or the ignition module. First do an ohms check and check the pick up coil for continuity. If it's good then replace the ignition module. Testing is cheaper than parts. That link above and Section 14 has the test procedures and a few illustrations.
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If you crank the car over, does the tach needle bounce to show the engine is spinning?
If not, it's a good general assumption that the ignitor module is gone bad. It's a pretty common issue on the Capri.
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If you crank the car over, does the tach needle bounce to show the engine is spinning?
If not, it's a good general assumption that the ignitor module is gone bad. It's a pretty common issue on the Capri.
A couple of questions there. The igniter is inside the distributor, right?
Where would you get one of them or do you have to buy a whole distributor?
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N/A's should have the igniter (Wells part#CR138) located externally and (Wells part#JP162) internally, while XR2's (part#LX593) have them located under the cap. They're available separate from the distributor just like the pick-up coil and can be ordered from most auto part stores.
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So the igniter is just another name for ignition module?
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The XR2 & N/A both have an internal module connected to a pickup coil. On the XR2 that is the only one.
It's actually way under the cap, within the distributor body itself. You have to remove some distributor internals to get to it.
On the N/A there the internal module, as well as the external module.
Im not really sure why they used two different systems. I guess the N/A has some ability to electronically control spark timing (only a few degrees?) while the XR2 has the knock control system.
It's my understanding that when the Capri shows ignitor module failure symptoms (dies when module gets hot, will only stay running for shorter and shorter periods of time until no-start at all) that it's the internal module. It seems like the N/A capri will throw a code when the external module is starting to show problems (CID sensor)
Can anyone corroborate this info?
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My old N/A distributor has a total of 4 electrical components. It has a pick-up coil and a ignition control module located inside. Externally it has what i thought was the igniter and a capacitor. When I get some time, I’ll take a closer look at the components and the schematics and see what's what.
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That 4th component is a radio noise suppressor. Thanks for the explanation on the other stuff. It was either Advance or RockAuto had both parts listed as an ignition module. That's where my confusion started. I wasn't sure if it was Aussie lingo or not, lol. The parts store just has it listed wrong. Not the first time that's happened. :)
I think it would be a good idea to carry a backup distributor.
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I always carry a spare distributor in my XR2.
I'm also a little irrational about carrying spare parts. On my 1600 mile MACG treks I would carry alternator, water pump, tbelt, distributor, hoses and all my tools. I couldnt afford to get stuck anywhere lol
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All the part stores seem to list the parts incorrectly for the N/A’s. The external module isn’t a ignition control module, it’s more or less just a cam sensor.
The N/A ECM doesn’t have the ability to change ignition timing. The ignition time is completely controlled by the vacuum advance setup. This is why the N/A only runs +2 degrees BTDC and in regular operation always runs advanced to some degree. In fact the only thing the ECM can do is enable/disable the ignition control module.
The N/A ignition system works as follows:
When the engine rotates it uses the external module (cam sensor) to tell the ECM what the rpm is. The ECM then send power via the green/yellow wire(the small plug with only one wire) to the distributor’s internal ICM to enable it if the speed is fast enough to run and not over revved. When the internal module is enabled, it uses the coil pick-up to help create the tach signal which drives the ignition coil and tach gauge.
The ECM monitors both the tach signal and the cam signal and continually compares the two. Generally when there are issues with the external module, the ECM gives you a CID fault (code 03). If the issue is the internal module then there’s just no tach signal.
I personally wouldn’t bother with a spare N/A distributor. You can easily replace all of the electrical component on it with nothing more then a philips screw driver and 15 mins of time.
Update: I was mistaken on the ICM, read my next post
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Ill have to check the FSM. That all sounds correct, but I thought I did see something about electronic timing in the FSM. It didn't make sense to me at the time.
The XR2's timing is purely mechanical. Our timing curves are a lot different.
The internal ingitor isn't super easy to replace on the road, you have to have a gear puller ideally to remove the 4-point cam 'star' that sits over top of the pickup coil. Considering all the other bits and bobs I carry, a dizzy's not a huge deal to carry and it takes 2 minutes flat to swap out.
While we are on the subject of ignition - I've toyed with the idea of replacing the internal ignitor with a more robust external one. Some of the V6 mazda folks had issues with theirs and switched to using an external GM HEI ingitor. They're significantly cheaper than the stock ones, a lot more common, and supposedly more robust. I may have talked about this here before, but what are your thoughts? It shouldn't be terribly difficult to wire up. I think we would need to fabricate a small spacer for inside the dizzy where the old ignitor bolted down, but that would be about it.
Theres some info available by googling "GM HEI mod"
Here's one I read not too long ago: http://www.clubprotege.com/wil/howto/hei/
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That sounds very interesting, I"ve always been a big fan of GM HEI since it first came out.
Jack
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I do remember reading about the ECM being able to change the ignition timing too, but for the life of me I could never figure out how. So earlier this week I got in touch with a friend from college that shared the same electrical engineering classes as me. He currently works at Wells Electronics, so I asked him if he could look up some info on the Wells part # 6H1187 (The N/A ICM).
What I found out is that the green/yellow wire that goes to the ICM (the small plug with only one wire) is not an enable/disable. Instead when power is applied it activates the pick-up unit connected to the ICM and shifts the ICM’s pick-up point, which causes the base timing to advance 2 degrees. The ECM only does this when the barometric sensor reads low ( car’s 1000m above sea level or perhaps drove into a tornado..lol).
The N/A’s timing during regular operation is still all mechanical.
I agree that having a gear puller to remove the armature would have been ideal, but I was stuck in a Shopko parking lot 80 miles from home when my ICM failed. I was able to get the armature off with a screwdriver, but I destroyed the pick-up unit in the progress. I figured $20 for a pick-up unit was a lot cheaper and faster than an 80 mile tow... ;D.
The lesson I learned from that was don’t install a MSD Blaster coil and try to drive it off the stock ICM. I found out just 4 days after installation that the power requirements for it overloaded my ICM and burned it out.
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ok, so I replaced the ignition control module, battery, coil, and ignition relay. I am still not starting, and I am not getting spark from the coil.. I stuck a screw driver in the wire to the distributor and touched it with my hand while someone cranked the car and did not get lit up.. so no spark. Please someone help me! What else could it be? I am not getting any tach bounce while I attempt to turn it over.
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Which ignition module did you change out? The external one, or the internal?
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Have you checked the timing belt yet?
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I have a 91 xr2, next to the main wiring connector in the engine bay there is a blk/white wire with a connector that reduces the gauge of the blk/w wire. Can someone tell me where it goes? It broke off and she will not wire.