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[Surfnut]

I'm fabbing up an engine cradle for my mid-engined Kelmark XR-2 project but I've run into yet another snag.

Here's the deal :
I want to bolt the wheels and tires I have on the Kelmark now onto the XR-2's front hubs.

In order to make the wheels fit under the Kelmark body, I need to shorten one or both axle shafts for a total of 5 inches.  Moser axle says this is not a problem.  Since I'm making mounts for the XR-2's lower control arms and upper strut towers, moving the suspension mounting points nearer the center of the car is no biggie either.
However,
I'll need a 1" wheel adapter to go from the Capri's bolt circle diameter to the Kelmark's bolt circle diameter.  (No real biggie there either.)
 

The Kelmark's wheels are 9 inches wide and have a 3 & 3/4" backspacing (so there's more wheel and tire to the "outside" of the hub than the stock Capri has).  My Capri's 17" wheels are 7 inches wide and have a 5 & 3/8" backspacing (so there's more wheel and tire to the "inside" of the hub than the Kelmark has).

If I use the Capri's wheels on the Kelmark, the outside of the wheels will sit in the wheelwells about 5" more than I want them to giving a really "skinny-looking" rear track width.

Here's the question :

Keeping in mind that the Kelmark is a bit lighter than a Capri, can the Capri's wheel bearings take the new offset wheels plus a 1" wheel adapter without premature failure ?

Odd question, I know...

Dave

[Rocketman]

That's a good question. I know someone running 18" wheels on a capri and the wheel bearings are not lasting very long. This could also be due to different reasons but I'm inclined to think the wheels are not helping.

1" spacer + Extra large wheels might be an issue. Do you have any other options? If you are getting custom / shortened axles, perhaps you could get custom made outer ends to fit into hubs with a much larger bearing?

Can you play with the control arm mounting to get the hubs out further?

[Surfnut]

Yes Rocketman.  I can just as easily move the control arm mounting points outwards to widen the Capri's wheel track width.

But, because I really want to use the stock Capri's strut and not have to fab a new upper a-arm and spring system, I'm going to have issues with the height and width of the tire I can fit under the strut.

Widening the rear track width leaves me with another issue : making those matching front-wheel drive Capri wheels fit under the front of the Kelmark.  The front wheel drive offset is going to force me to get a 4" wheel adapter to move the front wheels out far enough to look right under the front of the Kel.

So if I widen the rear, I run into fitment issues in the front.  If I narrow the rear, the front remains unchanged but then we get the problems I described in my last post.

I believe that's the definition of "Catch 22"

[Surfnut]

By the way, are you going to the Carlisle show next weekend with any Rocketchip ECU's in tow ?  'Cause I'd really like to buy one....

Dave

[Rocketman]

I am not planning on heading down to Carlisle, but which route are you taking down? I'm in Eastern PA maybe we could meet up somewhere?

Is there any way to order custom staggered wheels?

I guess I'm not understanding why you have to modify both the front and the rear? Do you have a diagram of what you're planning?

[Surfnut]

I'm not sure which way we're going to go.  Usually we head to Hazelton and then go South, stop in Reading and then stay in Harrisburg but that's only a fly-by-wire plan.  This way we can hit the U-Pull junkyards before the swap meet.

My sister lives in Michigan (she's in the process of moving).  As soon as I figure out what house she's going to live at I'll send you the address and just pay you through PayPal.  I won't need the ECU for a while anyway...


The wheels on the Kelmark are all rear-wheel drive offset wheels (I think 3 & 3/4" backspacing).  The wheels on my Capri right now are 5 & 3/8" backspacing.  If I use those wheels on the front of the Kelmark then I'll have issues making the front-wheel drive wheels fit on the front of the car.  Essentially, they'll sit "In" way too much.  That's why I'd need a thick wheel adapter to put the Capri wheels "out" further to sit right in the wheel wells.  

An easy fix, as you suggested is staggered offset wheels.  Basically, a front-wheel drive offset for the rear of the car where the XR-2 transmission is and a rear-wheel drive offset for the front of the car so the wheels won't sit inside the body so much.

However, I really want to use the wheels that are on the Kelmark now.  I think those wheels look good on that car and if I can just figure out if the XR-2's wheel bearings can take the offset of the Kelmark's wheels then I can have a halfshaft shortened and it'll be easy to figure out exactly where to mount the XR-2's suspension.  That's what's holding me up now.

Truthfully, I think the Capri's wheel bearings could take the stress of the rear wheel drive offset and a 1" wheel adapter.  The Kelmark is hundred of pounds lighter than a Capri and perhaps with regular bearing inspection and repacking I can head off premature bearing failure - but I'm just guessing...regardless, thanks a lot for your thoughts on the subject !

Dave

[Rocketman]

No problem Dave-

I am only ~50 minutes from the 80/81 intersection /hazleton, I could be up for meeting especially if the hour is right I could meet you right at the junkyard.

[Surfnut]

Rocketman, we're going to leave the Detroit Sunday morning, go to Hazelton, spend the night and then start raping Harry's on Monday morning.  We might stay in Hazelton on Monday night, we might move on to Reading...I don't know what my Dad will decide after we pillage Harry's.  

If you've got nothing important to do in that time frame please give me a call on my cell :

1-734-502-6071

Also, would you happen to have any halfshafts and spindles lying around that you might be willing to part with cheap ?   I don't need any but I wouldn't mind having a couple extra (for replacements when I butcher mine...)
Any other performance parts you've got that I just can't live without ?

Thanks,
Dave

[Rocketman]

I'll see what I can dig up - I am going to hold onto my spindles for the time being: going to start offering bolt-on big brake upgrades.

The only extra axles I have are shot I think... if they might be of use to you let me know. Don't have any extra jackshafts though.

Im sure we can meet up on Monday, I'll be recovering from the Northeast Meet on Sunday though. I could meet you at the yard sometime, I can have an ECU ready for you. Last time I was there there was only 1 (one!) capri, an 93 n/a manual, the spindles & struts on the front of it looked in good shape.

[Surfnut]

In Hazelton now.
My dad suggested this on the trip down to alleviate almost ALL my issues with wheels and offsets etc..

Redrill the hubs from the Capri's 4 bolt wheel pattern to a Chevy 5 bolt pattern (4 & 3/4" Bolt circle diameter).  (Assuming there's enough room on the Capri hub to get all 5 studs in ?)

According to my measurements, this would bring my Capri's track width (with the Kelmark wheels bolted on) to within 3/16" of exactly where I want it.  No custom halfshafts, no wheel adapters - just redrilled hubs.

Got any extra hubs lying around ?

Dave

[Surfnut]

After looking at pictures of the Capri's hubs, I can't see any way they could be redrilled to a 5 bolt pattern.  Too bad.  That would solve all my problems.
Drat.

[Surfnut]

I know this is nearly completely useless information for anybody here as you'll almost never need to go with wheel adapters on a Capri but for what it's worth, just about no one is willing to make an adapter for me.  

I want to go from the Capri's 4 bolt, 114.3 mm bolt circle diameter hub to a Chevy 5 bolt 4 & 3/4" bolt circle diameter wheel (think mid '70's Camaro-style wheel).

114.3 mm converts to 4.4998 inches.  So essentially I'm looking to go from a 4 bolt, 4.5" diameter hub to a 5 bolt, 4.75" wheel.  The only guy I can find who is willing to do this is in England.  Everybody in the U.S. and Canada says, "It can't be done."  Which I know for a fact can be done because I've had them done in the past (like 15-20 years ago).  A guy in California made them for me.

One guy finally came forward and told me that I won't find anyone to do it because of "liability issues."  Which I think is B.S. 'cause you could argue the liability angle with ANY wheel adapter.

So just a tip for all y'all if you ever need wheel adapters.  If you're want to go from a 4 bolt hub to 4 bolt wheel then you won't have a problem.  If you want to go 4 bolt hub to 5 bolt wheel or 5 bolt hub to 4 bolt wheel etc...then you're gonna have a tough time.

I'll post here when I finally figure out what I'm going to do.  And I'm still open to suggestions if anybody's got something constructive for me !

Dave

[CapriProject]

I ran some lug adapters on an old car of mine years ago without any problems but it was 5 lug to 5 lug so it's a different 'animal' from what you want.
I was thinking about the possiblity of doing what your talking about (& nothing on TV tonight) so I downloaded a picture of a 4 lug adapter & a 5 lug adapter. In Printshop I croped & sized the 5 lug pic to 4.75 & the 4 lug to 4.50 ... No matter how I rotated them I couldn't get it to where one of the '5' lug studs didn't invade one of the '4' lug holes.   (see attached)  

[Surfnut]

Good Job !
Two fixes I know of for that problem.
I had an '82 Subaru Brat that had a really big bolt circle diameter - I think it was 4 on 140mm.
I had a guy in California make me wheel adapters to go to a Chevy 5 bolt 4 & 3/4" bolt circle diameter (which happens to be the same B.C. diam I want for the Capri).

Four of the 5 studs were normal old wheel adapter studs.  The fifth one, however, was cool as can be.  It was an offset stud.  (It sort of looked like this, only much more of an offset) :

http://retrospec-guitar.com/store/images/offset.jpg

 What you did was hand thread this offset stud onto a Subaru stud.  Then you had to kind of center that offset stud and put the wheel adapter over it, onto the hub.  
Tighten the three nuts down onto the wheel adapter which held the adapter to the Subaru hub then put the Chevy wheel on the adapter, tighten the wheel down and you're good to go.  I did about 45,000 miles on those adapters and yes, I also did a lot of 4X4 off roading.  Every couple of months I checked my lug nut's torque with a torque wrench and a couple of times a year I'd pull the wheels off and recheck the torque on the adapters.  From what I remember, I NEVER had any problems with anything.  

Nobody wants to do an adapter like that now so the only viable option is to go to a 2 piece adapter.  Piece one of the adapter bolts to the Capri hub.  Piece two of the adapter is machined for the rims you want and is bolted to piece one of the adapter with counter sunk screws.  More work, as far as I'm concerned but if it's my only option...

Either way, it CAN be done and it blows my mind that in this economy, machine shops that are certainly capable of doing this won't do it !  A lot of these adapter prices START at $95 PER wheel...I'm sure they'd charge more for a true custom adapter with an offset stud.

Oh, and for what it's worth, my Kelmark has adapters on it now.  '69 VW Beetle four bolt hubs to that same Chevy bolt pattern I'm looking for now.  31 years they've been on the car - again, no problems.

Thanks for the photoshopped image.  I wouldn't be able to figure out how to photoshop an image if I had a week to practice.

Dave

[CapriProject]

Sounds like you've been down this road enough to see the problems & cures. If they both were 4.5 diameter patterns, one could 'share' a longer extended stud, but with that 1/4" difference it complicates things.
Just another "non-traditional" suggestion: If the adapter had the four lug holes at 4.5" dia. & only four (of the 5) studs for the 4.75" dia. (which didn't obstruct the other 4 holes) You could secure the wheel with equal 4-lug strength & have the wheel's 5th hole 'match' by securing the lug nut with a short bolt. Just another old fabricator's suggestion. A local (good) shop could fabricate some or modify some 5-lug to 5-lug purchased adapters.